Carbon Footprints and Women Empowerment: A Conversation with Michelle Li
Voices: An Interview with Michelle Li, Clever Carbon & Women and Climate
Over here at Climate North, we’ve been having conversations with some of the most forward-thinking leaders in the climate space —conversations that are too important and too inspiring to keep within closed circles. So we’re opening the doors and bringing you along. Welcome to Voices. This isn’t just about storytelling; it’s a call to action, a community of ideas, and a reminder that the future we dream of is one we build together.
Instead of our usual written Q&A, co-founder Chloe D’Agostini sat down for a real-time conversation with the brilliant Michelle Li, founder of Clever Carbon and co-founder of Women and Climate. What follows is a transcript of that exchange, capturing the nuance of a live dialogue with one of the climate space’s most dynamic voices.
Michelle Li stands at the forefront of the global climate movement as a renowned Climate Champion, influential thought leader, and compelling keynote speaker. She is the driving force behind Clever Carbon, an organization dedicated to democratizing carbon footprint literacy through hip and fun content. Michelle’s strategic acumen was honed in Silicon Valley, working with leading tech companies like Salesforce, before she pivoted to galvanize widespread climate action. Her expertise and electrifying keynote is sought on the world's most significant platforms; Michelle has addressed audiences at SXSW, TEDx, Bloomberg Green, Davos and COP29, and contributes her insights to the United Nations. With innovation, creativity, and resilience at the heart of her messaging, Michelle is a consistently relevant and engaging choice for any event.
Chloe D'Agostini
Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got involved in the climate space?
Michelle Li
I’ll go back a little bit, to my university days where I studied science. I first earned a Bachelor of Science from the University of Waterloo, then went on to complete a Master of Science in Cancer Genetics at the University of Toronto.
But I knew that a career in academic research wasn’t going to give me the life I wanted. So I started working for a boutique market research company focused on medical devices. That was the first time in my career that I had the opportunity to be client-facing, working with companies like Siemens and Philips, and attend trade shows where I got exposure to the business world.
I've been fascinated by business for a very long time. I used to read Bloomberg Businessweek all the time, actually I still do. I enjoy learning about how companies are creating strategies and competing. At the medical devices company I learned a lot, but wanted to venture beyond medical devices and market research.
So I decided to go to business school and ended up doing a one-year MBA program at Hult International Business School in San Francisco, which completely changed my life. After Hult, I worked at Salesforce and DocuSign - I spent almost eight years in tech.
To me, sustainability has always just been common sense. I don't really think of it as ‘sustainability’. For example, if seven billion people at the same time are disposing of single-use coffee cups, that doesn't make sense to me.
When I moved to London while I was working for DocuSign, I ended up volunteering for a local plastic-free advocacy group. But I found that their messaging was very negative and quite binary, “this is bad, this is good”. They didn’t really prioritize their messaging and branding, which was difficult. I tried to support them with this in various ways, but they had firm ideas about how they wanted to communicate. That's when I decided to do my own thing, which is when I created Clever Carbon, my starting point in climate.
Chloe D'Agostini
You touched a little bit on what motivated you to start Clever Carbon, but feel free to expand on that. What are the problems you’re trying to solve with Clever Carbon and your other venture, Women and Climate?
Michelle Li
I think what I wanted to do was empower people with information, especially on the Clever Carbon side.
Today, a coffee cup is bad. Flying is bad. But they are on such different scales of magnitude of bad, but people can't easily and transparently see by how much.
It’s easy to sweep things under the carpet and not think about them.
A good example is nutrition labels. Before we had nutrition labels, people drank three, four, five soft drinks a day. A lot of people have actually cut soft drinks out because they have the information, they know the numbers.
Not everyone knows what a calorie is, but when you look at it relative to something else, you can see which one is higher and which is lower - our brains have an amazing ability to understand numbers.
So with Clever Carbon, what I really envisioned was the ability to equip people with information and knowledge from a quantitative standpoint so that they could make decisions that align with their values.
Let’s take a vegetarian meal as an example. On average it has 600 grams of CO2 emissions, a serving of chicken has around 1,300 grams, and a serving of beef has 7,700 grams, right?
If people could quickly access and see these numbers, I think they would act differently. But right now they don't, and that's what we're trying to change at Clever Carbon. We want to help people understand those numbers and where carbon comes in from their lives.
We want this knowledge to be shared with everyone. The data is available, and you don't have to care about the climate to understand carbon footprints. Shout out to brands like Allbirds and a Brazilian apparel company called Pantys, who carbon label their products and share that with consumers. You can actually see the breakdown of a carbon footprint of a product, raw materials, manufacturing, shipping, use, end of life. I envision a world where all brands do this and people can make more informed decisions. The important thing is that everybody gets access to this information, not just people who care about climate.
Women and Climate began when I was new to both the climate space and New York City. I wanted to meet like-minded, value-aligned people, so I organized a dinner and posted it on Eventbrite.
12 women came, and I did it again the next month. My co-founder, Stephanie, started co-hosting. Fast forward to today, we have over 90 city leads all over the world, from Nepal to Bali, Abu Dhabi to LA. Women and Climate takes a different approach to getting more people into the climate space.
I think at the very minimum my work is always focused on, how can we just educate everyone? How do we bring more people in? Not just the experts and people who are already working in Climate. But how do we make the space bigger?
Women and Climate is a women's professional network. We create a joyful, safe space for more women to learn and talk about Climate. We have in-person events. We have virtual networking events. It’s sort of become this huge thing in a way that we weren't expecting. It's not something that we anticipated, but it's been amazing to build it and to see the impact.
At Clever Carbon, we work with major organizations like the NBA (National Basketball Association), organizations like Mubadala (one of the sovereign funds of the UAE), MasterCard Supply-In, Bristol-Myers Squibb. It’s a huge deal.
Chloe D'Agostini
So well said - kudos to you. Your career journey has taken you from Canada into major international markets like the US and UAE. What would you say has helped you break through North American borders, especially in a space that can be kind of notoriously hard to access?
Michelle Li
I think what's interesting about the climate space is that it is very international at its core. Obviously, the UN is a big governing body when it comes to climate policy and frameworks. At New York Climate Week, which I've attended in the past, it's not just people from the US, it’s people from all over the world. You can find yourself in a room with someone from Africa, someone from Asia, someone from the UAE.
That's how I've been able to really break through these borders. I have been to these global events, even though many of them are in North America, people from around the world attend.
Being immersed in this world has taken me into some interesting spaces. For example, I spoke at an event in Singapore, the Bloomberg Sustainability Summit. I had some work in Venice with a semiconductor trade association. It's just sort of like grown from just random opportunities.
Chloe D'Agostini
You have spoken on some of the world’s largest stages, from Davos to COP, and have worked with major global brands and sovereign funds. So what has it been like to transition from your career in tech to where you are now, a speaker and building your personal brand?
Michelle Li
I mean, I never thought that life would take me down this path. And it just really showed me what I could do on my own, and how much I was confined when I was working for an organization. I wasn't able to soar and to exercise all of this independence and creativity. Now I get to pretty much say what I want to, but obviously I'm careful about what I say because I want to be accepted in these circles.
It’s very satisfying to know that this idea that I had four years ago, has resonated with people.
Chloe D'Agostini
That's incredible. With your international experience, how would you say that's helped shape your perspective on Canada's role in global climate action?
Michelle Li
I think I play a lot in the private sector. So companies that are setting net zero targets and writing ESG reports. You know, that's a very large portion of organizations across North America, Europe, and even Asia. I'm really not seeing as much activity from Canada, especially from the private sector. I don't think that there are a lot of requirements for them to report or to measure.
There are some companies in Canada that have made it work here at home, but not internationally. For example, if we look at Loblaws, they don't necessarily play in Europe. And Europe's really stringent in terms of their climate reporting.
A lot of American companies follow European rules because they sell products in Europe, so they have to follow their rules. As a result, they have these reporting processes in place.
But Canada doesn't really have that, so I haven't seen it as much. I think in the banking and real estate sectors, there definitely is work happening from a corporate perspective. But it's not something that I've seen a lot of activity around. When I go to international conferences, whether it's UNGA (The UN General Assembly) or Davos, I don't see a lot of Canadian representatives, especially focusing on climate.
I think for Canada, it's very focused on policies, carbon taxes, and stuff that happens at a government level, much less on a corporate and individual level.
I've been to three COPs so far, I don't know anyone at the Canadian pavilions. I find it difficult to have more conversations with Canadians. I think they have different objectives, but I would love to get more involved.
Chloe D'Agostini
With all the work that you're doing, what kind of impact do you hope that your work will have on communities, ecosystems, and the planet?
Michelle Li
I really hope that I'm going to work myself out of a job! That eventually everyone will know about carbon footprints and they won't need us anymore, although there's always stuff to learn.
But I think it would be awesome if Clever Carbon was that go-to for people to start their carbon journey, find out their carbon footprint, find out what the CO2 concentration was when they were born.
Also to have more people pay attention to our oceans. Take initiative to repair our oceans because they will play such an important role if we are to come out on the other end of climate change.
Living things under the ocean don't have a voice, it's up to us to speak on behalf of them and make sure that we're taking care of it and conserving it because without the ocean, there is no thriving planet.
Chloe D'Agostini
I love that you pointed that out and I agree. Within the Climate North community, we love to share how people can support the work others are doing. What does that look like for you?
Michelle Li
I think it would be awesome if everyone had a concept of their own personal carbon footprint. I think even people who work in this space somewhat know that they have a carbon footprint but they don't know, for example, that the average in Canada is around 14 tons per year. The U.S. is 17 tons; the U.K. 7.7 tons; a country like Vietnam is around 2.1 tons. We have a really simple carbon footprint quiz that you can take to find out what your carbon footprint is.
So spreading awareness about that, because, you can quote me, it's kind of the gateway drug into carbon literature.
If everyone in the world knew their carbon footprint, took a quiz, our quiz, any quiz, we would be better off.
Chloe D'Agostini
Okay, so people can find your carbon calculator at your website, right? Where else can people follow along?
Michelle Li
Yeah, https://clevercarbon.io/quiz. People can check out our Clever Carbon and Women and Climate socials.
Chloe D'Agostini
Thanks Michelle, this was fun.
Michelle Li
Thank you so much!
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For more info check out the following links:
Clever Carbon
Women and Climate